Here is a conversation that took place on facebook yesterday. E is an old coworker from Disneyland, J is me, and V is a friend of E's that I dont know.
E: is wondering if same sex marrige can be taken away, who is next? Athiests Jewish? Blue Eyed People? Canadians? Irish? And are Men going to Own Woman again. 12:04pm
J at 12:14pm March 6:
ok you keep posting this so you must want comments on it...so I'll bite. and I'm prepared for the backlash I'm sure to get. I think the issue boils down to this...Christians, in general, and myself included, believe that homosexuality is a choice. and that is what makes the difference with the other cases you pointed out. A person can't choose to be blue eyed, or canadian, or Irish, but a person can choose to be homosexual. and the Bible does not condone homosexuality. that being said...I dont condone violence or hatred toward gays. They are no different than me. We are all sinners. Their sin is just a different sin than mine. No better, no worse.
E at 12:25pm March 6:
Actually, I have changed it a couple time.... Did you choose to be straight?
J at 12:47pm March 6:
No, but being straight is not sin. Being straight is what God created. He created Eve for Adam. He did not create another man for Adam or another woman for Eve.
V at 1:15pm March 6:
I understand that viewpoint, I spent wayyyyy too many years in the Catholic Cult...but those kind of views is exactly why religion is loosing it's "followers" ... How black and white... how judgemental. And the one reference to homosexuality in the Bible can be interpreted, just like every friggin other item, many different ways. I'm so sick of rights of people being imposed upon in the name of God. Who the hell are we (christians, and I do include myself in that bucket, just no longer at mass, but a more liberal ideology) to say someone has to do without LEGAL rights? Ban them from attending church, not being legally protected even if it is a CHOICE ... who the hell cares what someone else does in their private choices? My God, I certainly don't want to be examined that way ;) But I am still a damn good person.
E at 1:28pm March 6:
Leave it to Jen to open a can of worms... LOL, Jen and I have always had a mutual respect to agree to disagree on numerous issue. That is why I do respect her so much, cause she is fun to debate with.....Whit that said, and being raised in a Christian environment, I couldn't agree more that the bible states that. But I do believe the bible being written in the words of the deciples and that is the interpretation of their word of God, and not God's actual word. But all that aside.. The state of California has taken then religious sanction of marriage and made it law. Due to the constitutional right of the separation of church and state, the state cannot uphold the religious beliefs in law. Legally anyone should be able to marry any human being they wish to under that law, but I do believe the Church has every right to deny them marriage in the eyes of god
J at 4:18pm March 6:
1. I disagree that Christianity is losing its “followers” (your word not mine). My church is full every week as are the churches of friends and family. But that’s not really the point here. 2. There are several references to homosexuality in the Bible. Here’s a few to get you started…Leviticus 18:22; Leviticus 20:13; Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11; Genesis 19:1-13. If you don’t have a Bible let me know and I can post the text for ya.
J at 4:18pm March 6:
3. As far as rights being imposed upon, Christians have had their rights imposed upon for years, and who is standing up for our rights. What about the rights of the football coach who now cannot bow his head while his team is praying? He is not leading the prayer, he is not saying a word, the student athletes are the ones doing the praying. He is simply bowing his head as a sign of respect and the court said he can no longer do that. What about the rights of the Christian photographer in New Mexico who was sued for discrimination because she would not photograph a lesbian wedding? It went against her beliefs, but no one stood up for her rights. And the doctor who was sued for refusing to inseminate a lesbian couple, the judge told him to find a different profession, what about his rights? Or the church that had to stop holding weddings on their property because they were sued for refusing to allow a gay wedding at their facility? Who is standing up for these people’s rights?
J at 4:19pm March 6:
4. Christians do believe that the Bible is the written word of God. Not the disciples, or anyone else’s, interpretation of His words. Galatians 1:11-12; Revelation 22:18-19; Deuteronomy 4:2; 5. Separation of church and state…..this phrase never actually appears in the constitution. It was first used by Thomas Jefferson in a letter to the Danbury Baptist Church. The phrase as it is used today is grossly misinterpreted….. “The "wall of separation between church and State" is a metaphor based on bad history, a metaphor which has proved useless as a guide to judging. It should be frankly and explicitly abandoned.” – Chief Justice William Rehnquist
E at 5:07pm March 6:
Jen, You know how to stick to your guns... and I have always admired you for it. I may have been mistaken when I quoted from the constitution about the separation of church and state, but it has been a legal presidence set forth by the court for years. I will have to say that the ultimate argument here is the deformation for the term marriage if a same sex couples are aloud to marry, but what it comes down to is that in the eyes of God, I feel marriage should be between a man and a woman, but in the eyes of the state it shouldn't. I know that the last thing the LGBT community wants it to smear the name if religious marriage, therefor leaving it intact. What we are seaking is the same legal right. I agree with a lot of what you say which is why it is very difficult for me. I am still a very strong believer in the Christian word, and am forced to either lie to everyone around me and myself about who I am.... or sin. Its a lesser of two evils.
E at 5:09pm March 6:
This isn't a life I chose, who would choose a life of ridicule and outcast? Especially when they are Christian? As a gay man, I just want to be married legally, If that is not in Gods plan for me then so be it, and things will work out the way they do. But whether or not the gets overturned,
E at 5:12pm March 6:
And as for standing up for the rights of the Christian people, I am ashamed to hear that the Christian people have not stood behind those who have been violated as the LGBT community stands behind those who have been. Maybe as Christians we need to be more vigilant in how we are treated, but I do not feel that the legal standing of this matter, hurts the Christian church. It does not force anyone to accept it, except for the state of California's legal system.
J at 6:39pm March 6:
Evan, I respect your opinion and am glad that we can have this discussion without turning it into some childish, name-calling argument as so often happens when talking about such personal things. I disagree with you on your final point. I think this does hurt the Christian church. Re-read my point #3. I know that my church, which does about 100 weddings a year in our chapel, is concerned that we may have to limit it solely to members of our church for fear that if we refuse to allow a gay/lesbian wedding we would be sued for discrimination. I know pastors are concerned about the same thing (being required to perform weddings for same sex couples). Homosexuality goes against our beliefs, whether or not you believe it is not the point in this arguement, it is against our beliefs. Why is upholding our beliefs not just as important as upholding the beliefs of the gay community?
J at 6:44pm March 6:
My other issue with the whole taking it before the supreme court thing is this... the people of CA have voted twice to ban same sex marriage.It is obviously what the majority want at this time. If it is overturned...that is just saying to the people that what we want doesnt matter. Why bother holding elections at all then? The people have expressed their wishes, why not wait til the next election and put it up for a vote again? Again, I respect you, and hope you know that this has nothing to do with you personally. I think you're a nice guy, I had fun working with you at D-land, I don't care if you are gay, I don't think it makes you a better or worse person than me, I just don't want my rights being infringed on either. =)
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